How To Talk About Gaza
Demonstrators sit inside the Canon House office building during a rally on Capitol Hill, Oct. 18, 2023, in Washington. (AP Photo/Jose Luis Magana)
David Sirota and guests explore the military onslaught and humanitarian catastrophe in the Gaza Strip.
On Wednesday, October 18, The Lever’s David Sirota hosted a live event with Canadian journalist and activist Naomi Klein and Palestinian-American political analyst Omar Baddar to discuss the ongoing fighting between Israel and Hamas and the mounting humanitarian crisis in the Gaza Strip.
David, Naomi, and Omar spoke about the historical and political context that led to this moment, the double standard being applied by corporate media outlets in their coverage of Israel and Palestine, and recent responses from members of Congress. They also took questions live on-air from the audience.
David Sirota
Naomi, why don’t you tell us what is happening right now, and why you think it’s so important?
Naomi Klein
I would just say solidarity is medicine in these times. And this was a ceasefire rally, calling for a ceasefire and humanitarian assistance immediately [held by] Jewish Voices for Peace and If Not Now, which are two Jewish-led organizations that are kind of the other Jewish lobby, really bringing a much younger, progressive perspective. It was the largest Jewish-led protest in solidarity with Palestinians in U.S. history. There were thousands upon thousands of people in front of Congress.
And more significantly than that was the civil disobedience: 500 people went into the Rotunda and were arrested — including lots of rabbis, and many, many young people. It was a real show of solidarity. And the message was: “Every life is precious.” It was really a message of total rejection for the targeting of civilians, no matter where they live. It wasn’t this double standard that you hear inside Congress of ‘absolute horror at the targeting of Israeli civilians (yes, I agree), but then bomb the hell out of them indiscriminately if they’re Palestinians.’ So, I really do believe it was a historic day. I was honored to be there.
It was also in support of a ceasefire resolution that is being led by [Rep.] Cori Bush [D-Mo.] but has sign-ons from a lot of other members of the so-called ‘Squad.’ I also spent a lot of time meeting with different congresspeople trying to get more people to sign on to this ceasefire resolution, and more people did sign on even today. So you really did see the power of pressure. But it’s still too small. And the calling for blood is very, very loud in there. It was an emotional day.
David Sirota
Omar, Naomi mentioned this double standard about civilian casualties. Talk to us a little bit about what that feels like to the Palestinian American community, to Palestinians who hear that.
Omar Baddar
Naomi, I think you’re putting your finger on a very, very serious problem that is long standing, even beyond this crisis we’ve had leading up to before even the Hamas attack.
There have been 250 Palestinians who had been killed just this year, primarily in the West Bank, as a result of Israeli government actions and settler attacks. And there’s hardly any mention of it in mainstream media discourse and hardly any commentary about it from Washington. And then we’ve had this absolutely horrific attack that Hamas has launched. And as a result of that, we see on a loop, the depth of Israeli humanity, we have parents being interviewed at length, giving emotional testimony about who their children were, and how difficult losing them is.
But the sharp contrast with the utter disregard we see for Palestinian life is quite grotesque, frankly. And that continued even as Israel started launching this massive onslaught throughout the Gaza strip, when we’re describing indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas. We are talking about war crimes. And more than that, frankly, I think the word ‘terrorism’ is the correct word that comes to mind.
There have been many, many, many bombings of Gaza by Israel before, and when human rights organizations investigate them, the conclusion they reach is that Israel has engaged in reckless and deliberate bombings and indiscriminate ones of civilian areas. And in some cases, even when there was this great March of Return out of Gaza in 2018, it was Israeli snipers taking aim at journalists, and medics, and activists who were clearly unarmed. So we have this pattern of Israel behaving in a way where it shows disregard for Palestinian human life.
And yet the dominant narrative is that when Palestinians kill civilians, it’s because they’re barbarian monsters. And when Israel does it, “Oh, it really has to be an accident, because Israel is way too nice and civilized, to ever do something like that, intentionally.” And that conveys a level of racism and dehumanization of Palestinians that I think is very, very deeply aggravating for a lot of people watching, and more crucially, than just the emotional impact of it, it stops us from pursuing better policies and moving things in a better direction, if we believe that there’s a fundamental disparity in the humanity of people on either side.
Because ultimately, beyond just this crisis, I don’t think we’re going to find a military solution for anything. Israel has believed for many decades, that if only they pummeled the Palestinians hard enough, and if only they squeezed them and confined them strictly enough, that they’re going to resolve this issue, and then Israel gets to live happily ever after. And the lesson has been, repeatedly, that this approach does not work. And all it does is produce the kind of despair on the Palestinian side that then leads to an explosion like the one that we just saw.
And what we really need is a shift in Israel’s approach. That can only be achieved by American pressure to accept that the only true way out of this is one in which Palestinians and Israelis get to live in safety, freedom, and security. That entails ending Israel’s siege, an occupation and apartheid system that has made Palestinian life really unlivable.
David Sirota
Let’s set aside Israel’s occupation. But, for argument’s sake, a terrorist attack happens, and Israel argues that the terrorists who committed that attack are deliberately basing their attacks from within civilian facilities from within hospitals, schools, civilian neighborhoods. And so then the question comes up, what is a humane and adequate security response?
Naomi Klein
I don’t think there is a military response that is going to, in any way, get at the root of what led to those attacks. I think Israel’s creating more “terrorists” every single day.
I was in Gaza in 2008. I met lots of little kids in the rubble. I met kids whose bodies had been burned with white phosphorus. Those are young men today. I saw the same thing in Iraq after the invasion. I believe Palestinians have a right, that people under occupation, have a right to armed resistance, up to targeting of civilians, because that violates the Geneva Conventions, which are the legacy of the Second World War.
We have an international legal architecture, that is one of the legacies of the Holocaust and the other horrors of the Second World War. And right now, Israeli officials are going on television, just shrugging it off. You can’t shrug off international law in the morning, and then invoke it in the afternoon when it’s Israel, who is violating international law.
I have been talking all day about Israel’s war crimes. But the thing about war crimes is you have to apply the standards. No matter who violates it. It’s not like, “My team’s okay. And your team is not.” It just doesn’t work that way.
It’s a really perilous time. But everyone now looks back on their response to the September 11th attack with a lot of regret, right? Because ultimately, those were criminal acts that could have been responded to as if they were criminal, and not through these massive wars that are basically unending, even if our governments no longer admit it.
So I think we’re repeating the same mistakes all over again. I think, also, like 9/11, there were people in the Bush administration who had a whole plan for redrawing the map of the Middle East, and they saw their moment. And I really think we have to remember that and think about people like Benjamin Netanyahu, who has a very extreme far-right government, who has been openly espousing genocidal ideas, and talking about how they don’t want to deal with Gaza anymore. And basically, they’ve been calling for ethnic cleansing. They want to take the entire West Bank, and they are seeing their moment here.